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AI has moved beyond experimentation. It now sits at the centre of decision-making. At the World Economic Forum Annual Meeting in Davos, the conversation is clear – how can leaders use AI to drive growth, manage risk and reshape work.
In episode 2 of our Davos Debrief series, Jeremy Maggs speaks to Lyndon Subroyen, Investec’s Global Head of Digital & Technology, on why AI is a platform shift, not a passing trend, and what that means for strategy, talent and long-term competitiveness.
Hosted by seasoned broadcaster, Jeremy Maggs, the No Ordinary Wednesday podcast unpacks the latest economic, business and political news in South Africa, with an all-star cast of investment and wealth managers, economists and financial planners from Investec. Listen in every second Wednesday for an in-depth look at what’s moving markets, shaping the economy, and changing the game for your wallet and your business.
Scroll down to read the transcript of this conversation.
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Transcript:
Intro
[00:00:00] Jeremy Maggs: Artificial intelligence is no longer a future debate. It’s a leadership decision. And in Davos at this year’s World Economic Forum annual meeting, artificial intelligence is being discussed as a driver of growth, competitiveness and long-term value creation with direct implications for how organisations invest, operate, and attract talent.
Hello, I’m Jeremy Maggs. This is No Ordinary Wednesday, Investec’s fortnightly podcast on the forces shaping business, markets and economies. And this week we’re in the middle of our special three-part Davos debrief series, hearing from Investec leaders on the ground in Switzerland. Today’s conversation is about technology, AI and the future of work.
Topics that are central to the programme at Davos as leaders grapple with how innovation can deliver growth without leaving people behind. But rapid innovation also raises tough questions. How do companies capture value from AI while managing risk? How do we invest in people so that the future of work is not one of displacement, but opportunity?
And what does all of this mean for business strategy and long-term competitiveness? And today, to help us answer some of those questions we have Lyndon Subroyen, who is Investec’s Global Head of Digital and Technology. Lyndon, welcome to episode two of this Davos Debrief.
So, Lyndon, this is your first time at the World Economic Forum in Davos. How are you finding it so far?
[00:01:36] Lyndon Subroyen: I mean, it’s just been absolutely profound. It’s been a day and a half for me so far. There are well 3000 people here from 149 countries. There are 200 politicians of which 65 of them are heads of state and there’s 850 chairs and CEO’s of companies. So it is a very, very influential group of people sitting around here.
And the opportunity to listen and learn has been amazing for me. And that is the theme of Davos this year, which is “A spirit of dialogue”. So super excited.
[00:02:00] Jeremy Maggs: One of the most talked about topics this year is artificial intelligence, as I’ve referenced. Conversations spanning from ethics and governance to economic impact and productivity.
Are there sessions or speakers that have caught your attention?
[00:02:13] Lyndon Subroyen: Look, so I’ve only been able to attend a few sessions in AI. So far. Probably the best that I’ve been in has been with Satya Nadella and Larry Fink, where Satya is the CEO of Microsoft and Larry Fink, who everyone will know is the chair and CEO of BlackRock, and their conversation was really centered on the economic prosperity that we think we will find as a result of AI.
But as we are going through this process of AI shifting fundamentally from being experimental to foundational, there’s recognition that AI is a platform shift for the world, and we’ve been through many platform shifts like this before, beyond my lifetime certainty. Things like the steam engine, electricity, these were platform shifts.
The internet connected the whole world, and each of these transform society. And we’re going through that one more time
[00:02:54] Jeremy Maggs: Now Lyndon, in business, the conversation often swings between AI as a transformative efficiency tool and AI as a disruption risk. What then is your take on how leaders should be thinking about AI this year?
[00:03:09] Lyndon Subroyen: Look, I think it’s easy to get caught up in either the hype where you have a utopian view of the world, or you get caught up in a negative spiral where you’ve got a dystopian view of the world. I think it’s got to be balanced, but the world has gone through these shifts before, you know, if you track the arc of computation over a long period of time, it’s a similar pattern that we’re going through now.
So we’ve proven that if you can get to the point where you can digitise something; artifacts, people, place, things – put into some kind of information format, you power it with information technology, you can build analytical power on top of that, and it starts to create new opportunities, new jobs, new industries.
So, each of the paradigms before this, if we think about in business with mainframes and PCs and servers, mobile and internet, that did exactly the same thing and we’re going through that paradigm right now.
So, I would encourage business leaders to just try and learn from history and look at what happened and we’ll go through the same shifts all over again.
If we go back to your point around disruption, I would guess 40, 50 years ago in big companies, you had pools of typists whose sole job it was to just type, and now every day 4 billion people wake up and they start typing. That didn’t create job destruction. It created more opportunity and more industries.
So, I think more of that is going to happen.
[00:04:22] Jeremy Maggs: Alright, Lyndon, the balance then between opportunity and risk comes up a lot. So how then should businesses think about balancing the urgency to innovate with the need to manage risk?
[00:04:33] Lyndon Subroyen: The key point there is very much balance. One of the talks I was in this morning, somebody likened human nature being a pattern that always goes in repeat, and he likened what he is concerned about with AI to the development of cars.
He described it quite simply, as you know, at first humans built cars, then we made them go really fast, then we had a crash, and then we realised we needed safety measures. He was concerned that we’re going to do the same thing with AI. We had great breakthroughs, now we’re going to try and make it go faster and be more powerful and we’re going to have a crash and then we’re going to try and implement safety measures.
So I think everyone is erring on the side of trying to be more balanced so we don’t default to the human behaviour that we normally would like building fast cars and then realising way after we need seat belts and airbags.
[00:05:12] Jeremy Maggs: So, when you look at AI and how it’s being adopted, are companies investing in the right capabilities or do you think many are still chasing the hype?
[00:05:22] Lyndon Subroyen: Look, there’s this idea that for new technologies to really have an impact, they’ve got to go through this process of diffusion into society. And there are three main players in that. There are the people who are bold, in this case, the people who are building and designing the models and training them and making really smart AI.
Then there are people who build infrastructure and the providers, all of this. And then there are the people who use it, the individuals and the companies. At the moment obviously most companies are on the side of being consumers of this technology. The technology won’t get to scale and add value if it doesn’t go through this full diffusion into society in the way that I’ve just described, where the frontier builders, the infrastructure providers and the users all understand where to prioritise the investment and how to use all of this safely.
And it is going to come down to learning skills and education.
[00:06:06] Jeremy Maggs: Now our central theme at Davos this week is investing in people, building resilient workforces and upskilling. So, in a world of AI, what should in your opinion, leaders be prioritising when it comes to workforce strategy and talent investment?
[00:06:21] Lyndon Subroyen: Technology intersects with investing in people in two ways. One is in skills and the others in jobs. So, AI will displace some jobs, but it’ll also create new ones. A major point now is, for me, it’s about retraining programmes. So, what we are hearing a lot in Davos at the moment in the sessions I’ve been in is the focus should be on how to prepare workers for an AI-augmented economy.
So, the idea of humans plus AI working together is where we need to direct our attention. So, if I give a practical example, that’s universally applicable, if you had a doctor who could spend more time with his patients because he’s got an AI agent alongside him capturing the notes, updating all the medical history, providing the input and the right codes into the medical claim system.
The entire ecosystem of medical servicing becomes better, and doctors get to spend more time with the patients. Patients get a much better service. So that kind of very simple idea of augmenting people with AI, with universal impact is how I think jobs will start to evolve going forward.
[00:07:16] Jeremy Maggs: So, Lyndon, if we look ahead to an AI-augmented workplace, which skills do you think will matter most?
[00:07:23] Lyndon Subroyen: I’m always going to say creativity and critical thinking because I think what we are finding now very clearly is the technology is able to do what we needed to do pretty accurately.
So, I remember a conversation with Bill Gates many, many years ago where he described his attempt to try and understand the difference between a Word document, a webpage and an application, and as somebody who builds software and somebody who’s built a lot of the computing capability, he couldn’t understand why these things had such different paradigms. Where we are today is you can describe something in a Word document and realise you actually want that to be interactive.
You ask the AI to convert that to a webpage and it’ll do it, and then you want it to be much richer. You can then ask it to convert the webpage into an application. So, this is all going to be powered by your creativity, and I think that’s the kind of skill that we need to be harnessing because the actual STEM skills are going to become easier to deploy now with AI. It is really a democratisation of technology in a way that we have never seen before.
[00:08:17] Jeremy Maggs: How do organisations then avoid scenarios where tech progress outpaces people’s ability to actually engage with it?
[00:08:26] Lyndon Subroyen: I think we’ve always run this risk of technology progressing faster than people can adopt it, but we’ve always found a way to catch up.
I think there’s always going to be some frontier technology, some leading-edge technology that’s being built that through the normal curve of adoption: you’ll have some early adopters, you’ll have people will be fast followers, people will then bring it into the mainstream and you’ll have some laggards.
So, I don’t think this is any different to that. I think there are some nuances today in that the world is more technologically savvy. I remember I grew up in South Africa and there was a direct correlation between your ability to be skilled in tools like Excel and a computer and your ability to therefore get a good job.
When mobile came about, that became pretty ubiquitous. There wasn’t such a correlation any longer, and the technology was adopted much quicker. So, I think the pace of this technology adoption is improving, and I think we’re seeing that with AI as well.
It is going to become more ubiquitous. It will be adopted faster, but there will always be a segment of the technology that’s outpacing mainstream human adoption, and I think that’s okay cause that’s what development progress is all about. We want that.
[00:09:23] Jeremy Maggs: Alright, let’s move on. Another long running debate, and one that I think is front and centre at Davos is the future of work. So, beyond jobs lost or created, do you have a view on how businesses need to adapt their operating models to succeed in this fast-evolving environment?
[00:09:43] Lyndon Subroyen: I think it’s fair to say all successful companies continue to evolve. They wouldn’t be around today if their culture didn’t evolve, if their operating models didn’t evolve based on the context in which they’re operating. So, the geopolitical climates, the technology advancement, the need of the consumers, the customers, their clients. If businesses don’t evolve, they don’t stay alive. This is going to be a similar challenge.
I like to draw comparisons to very simple scenarios to help me understand this on my own. So if I think about many of the senior leaders who are here at Davos this week, no doubt, 5, 7, 10 years ago, probably two years ago, in their preparation for it, they would have had a series of meetings lined up, lots of one-to-one engagements with different counterparts. For each of those counterparts their teams would be producing briefing notes for them. I’m pretty certain today these C-Suite executives are producing their briefing notes for themselves and they’re sending it to the rest of their teams.
You know, “I’m meeting so and so from this company. Here’s all of our bilateral interactions with each other. Here’s their strategy. Here’s where our strategy intersects with theirs, and here’s what my conversation’s going to be”.
That can be created now pretty easily. So, you see an inversion of the flow of information where you used to have this bottom up flow up to the C-suite. You now have a pretty flattening of the structure where the information could flow around, and we can start to think about different value creations.
So that’s an example of an adaptation of companies as AI starts to infuse itself into the organisations. There’s going to be job displacement. Let’s not kid ourselves about this, but in every major technology advancement with job displacement has come massive new job creation. You can look back in history going back a hundred years, and you’ll see that take place.
The same is going to happen here, so we already can see new skills that are required for today, not even the future, for today, in order to just keep our companies competitive. In an AI-driven world that is so heavily dependent on technology that requires a much more secure estate. You know, one of the things we haven’t spoken about, you and I here, is the threat that comes with technology advancements.
But all of these create new opportunities for roles and jobs and people to develop new skills.
[00:11:44] Jeremy Maggs: Alright, let’s discuss those threats then. What’s important for leaders to understand about the risk side of rapid technological advancement?
[00:11:51] Lyndon Subroyen: Look, what we do know, every major technology advancement creates an opportunity for threat actors, criminals to also adopt this technology and use it for their benefit.
One of the big themes of Davos this week is cyber-crime and cybersecurity and what we know for sure is that it has shifted now from a focus on cyber as a tool for crime to cyber as a tool for disruption and espionage.
So the intersection of the conversations taking place in the sessions I’ve been in so far, and I’m sure will continue, is the intersection between the advancement of AI, the geopolitical landscape today and how those two are becoming drivers for heightened cyber activity, cyber-attacks, and therefore how we’ve got to leverage all of those together to try and ensure we stay secure.
You know, cybersecurity used to be a technology-focused area. Now it’s very much a boardroom issue. It used to be for a while where certain industries paid attention to it. Now it’s a societal issue. You know, there is no society today if we can’t keep all of our infrastructure secure, and that’s the world we live in. And so I’ve been in a few sessions on it this week, and I’m sure it’s going to continue for the rest of the week.
[00:12:58] Jeremy Maggs: There’s a strong governance thread running through AI discussions this week, as I understand it. Ethics, accountability, transparency, regulation. From your perspective, what’s the right approach to risk and governance when deploying AI at scale?
[00:13:15] Lyndon Subroyen: If we go back to earlier on, I spoke about the diffusion of AI into companies and society -the three major plays in it, the people who produce these advanced AI models, the frontier models; the people who then build infrastructure in which these things run on; and then the consumers of it. I think the ethical and secure use of AI has to be applied in all of those layers. We’ve got to have security built into it. We’ve got to have good ethical boundaries built into it. We’ve got to have kill switches built into it. And at each of those layers, we’ve got to make sure that we don’t just rely on what was there before.
We layer even more guardrails on top of it, which is how we think about it in corporates. And I would encourage everyone across public, private, and in private, the producers and the consumers to think about how they can collaborate across all of those areas to make sure that we advance safely.
[00:14:01] Jeremy Maggs: Investors are increasingly looking at technology, not just as a productivity tool, but as a growth engine. So where do you see the most compelling opportunities right now, not just for tech firms, but for businesses embracing technology more broadly?
[00:14:15] Lyndon Subroyen: We are in the middle of probably one of the most consequential moments in the world.
If I take the geopolitics and put that aside, if I take the fact that economic and trade boundaries are being redrawn and put that aside, I think technology advances right now, both, I’ll use the term “threatened prosperity and pain”. So I think if we look at the upside and the downside of us getting this right or wrong, it’s no wonder that there’s so much focus on investors on how to get the best out of it because we need to get the best out of it.
In the last 12 months alone, one and a half trillion dollars have been invested in new technology. If this is applied in the right way, it is going to be the driver for growth over the next decade.
I don’t think you’re going to see the same kind of capital expenditure continue for the second half of this decade, but the fact that we’ve put in place all of these foundational capabilities now the focus is how to leverage it safely, how to deploy it, how to diffuse it, I keep using that term, into societies in the right way. That will be the driver for economic growth, and I remain completely optimistic that that’s the outcome we’re going to get.
[00:15:11] Jeremy Maggs: So, a follow up to that, are there particular sectors that are especially well positioned to benefit from the AI transition?
[00:15:20] Lyndon Subroyen: I can’t think of a sector that is not positioned well to benefit from this. Whether you’re working in the medical sphere, in retail, in manufacturing, and financial services and technology, every one of those are being not just disrupted but advanced faster than ever before because of this.
[00:15:36] Jeremy Maggs: And when it comes to emerging markets, particularly here in Africa, do you see them primed to leapfrog or is there a risk that they will fall further behind?
[00:15:47] Lyndon Subroyen: A term that I’ve heard quite a lot over the last few days is the Global South, which is, I guess a friendlier way to describe emerging markets these days. The investment being made by the large technology providers spans not just the developed world, but into the emerging markets as well. I have seen the adoption of this keeping pace in emerging markets.
Certainly, in the countries that we operate in, and I suspect because they have less legacy, they have an opportunity now to leapfrog some of the more developed economies because they don’t have to go through the same learning processes and infrastructure buildouts to get to where developed economies are today.
So, I suspect that they will likely leapfrog a couple of steps in their own development and get to the point where they are cutting edge, bleeding edge. I really like what’s happening out in the Middle East where they’ve made conscious decisions that they’re going to be leaders in AI and because they had no other legacy behind them. They just went straight to the outcome they wanted, and my hope is that that is what continues to happen in emerging economies.
You’ve got consumer bases that are large, they are modernised, they are completely digital in most cases because of mobile phones and the ubiquity of the internet, and they’re not afraid to adopt these technologies.
I think it’s up to governments and business leaders to help drive the change in society.
[00:17:04] Jeremy Maggs: So, as Davos unfolds then with sessions on AI, people-centered innovation and the future of work, what’s the single question you think that leaders should be asking themselves as they head back to their organisations?
[00:17:19] Lyndon Subroyen: So, at the start, I said the theme for Davos this year is “A spirit of dialogue”. I think business leaders, public sector leaders, will have to understand how as AI diffuses into society, they will need to evolve. So, the way that we work and workflow will change. That means that firms and government societies will have to change. That means education systems will have to change.
But the best way to understand the change that is needed here is by having these conversations with each other. So, I’m a big proponent of the public-private collaboration to try and get these changes through. And in the spirit of dialogue, I think them working together will come up with the best answers.
[00:17:59] Jeremy Maggs: Lyndon Subroyen, Global Head of Digital and Technology at Investec, thank you so much for your insight from Davos.
In our next episode that drops on the 23rd of January, we’ll wrap up our series with the key takeouts from this year’s meeting. Until then, thank you so much for listening to this edition of No Ordinary Wednesday, and remember to follow Investec Focus Radio SA wherever you get your podcasts.
And if you like the channel, please take a moment to rate it and share it as this is going to help us reach more listeners. Until next time, goodbye from me, Jeremy Maggs and the entire focus radio team.
[00:18:38] Disclaimer: The views expressed are those of the contributors at the time of publication and do not necessarily represent the views of the firm and should not be taken as advice or recommendations.
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